A: It’s a lot more difficult than before. There are more and more regulations, like the minor works control system. The quality of employees has also gone down. Before, people were more hard-working, but not anymore. The costs of materials have also increased.

B: From a purely business standpoint, employees present the biggest problem. Education standards have risen across the board, and more people have studied design, yet the overall quality of employees has gone down, and it is harder to communicate with them. I have to spend a lot of time training them. Also Hong Kong is a very commercial city, and clients are more concerned with business value, and all his considerations are money-related. In other countries the tenancy agreement may last for 10 years, but in Hong Kong it typically lass 2-3 years. Therefore the budget and the schedule and budget are tighter and there are more commercial constraints. For Mainland projects the conceptual stage may last a year, but in Hong Kong you have to think and do at the same time. The third issue is the uncertain professional standing of interior design. Even actors may claim to be interior designers, whereas other professions are better regulated and are more protectionistic, while interior design is more casual. Different companies use different tactics to survive, and the end result is that our professional fees can’t be too high. Taking all three factors into consideration, this becomes a tough business to survive in, but if you can overcome them, then you can do very well. The general level of Hong Kong design is low, especially in comparison with Europe and Japan. Hong Kong has very few internationally renowned designers. This not only has to do with the ability of the business owner, but also the quality of employees, because design is teamwork.  You can’t just rely on the owner to drive the whole business. I have worked in architectural firms overseas, and feel that their average level is higher than Hong Kong due to educational, cultural and environmental factors. Hong Kong has a few architecturally well known buildings, like public housing estates, but that’s not because they are beautiful, but due to commercially related reasons, like they can be put up in an efficient manner

B: Not at all, and the problem is not just with the new generation. If you go to a book store and look up books featuring internal design masters, you see that they use design as a tool; they make money based on their creativity, whereas Hong Kong rely on commercially driven factors to make money. Even if designers place design quality first, the clients and contractors don’t feel the same way. I have been to construction sites in Japan. Every morning the workers line up in neat rows like in the army to let the foreman inspect their tools. They use their professional judgement to determine if something is right or wrong. It is all a matter of culture and education. In Hong Kong and the Mainland, workers hope that you won’t notice their faults. Good design is not just about drawing a beautiful plan, but you need to execute it. If everyone just hope to get by, or if they don’t have creative thinking, then the project won’t turn out well. So it’s not just a matter of creative vision or attitude of individuals, but the whole environment. A talented young designer would have a very different career if he or she went abroad as opposed to staying in Hong Kong. I also have branch offices in Mainland China. I would not say workers there are less intelligent, but their focus is different from us. For example, they work very hard, but not for the sake of the project, but rather in preparation for switching to another company.

C: Budgets for projects used to be larger than they are now. Because of the length of tenancy agreements, designs are only supposed to last for 2 years, so we use poorer quality materials, which limits the kind of design are able to do. The average level of design is just so-so, although there are outstanding designers in Hong Kong. In this information age, young people are exposed to a great deal of information. In terms of architecture, other countries have more developed arts and culture scenes, and allow architects to express their creativity. Property owners in Hong Kong are more opinionated and are more troublesome to deal with, and the architecture in Hong Kong is often creatively constrained by their demands. Hong Kong designers have more room to maneuver in Mainland China because they are more respected. Now the market condition is good, and graduates command high salaries. They mostly just want to earn more money rather than learn things. As employers, we spend a lot of time and effort training up someone, only for him or her to switch jobs after a year.

D: Some employees even steal your ideas or clients.

A: Clients see design only as a means of making money, and that’s why designers simply try to please the clients rather than doing things they like, and they don’t stand up for their ideas.

C: You should educate the clients, and make them realize that design is useful and beneficial. A few days ago a clients asked me to do some design proposals for him. When I asked him to sign an agreement and pay the first installment, he told me that other companies did design proposals for him for free.

B: In recent years, the HKDA and HKIA have issued internal memos telling designers not to do free pitching. Clients all over the world are commercially oriented; they are capitalists. But in other countries there are many successful examples of people using design to generate revenue. The government can have a big role in promoting this aspect of design, like with Singapore and Shanghai’s Xintiandi. In London people organize architectural trips that allows people to know about this subject, while the Hong Kong government does little to promote local interior design and architecture. A few years ago I taught interior design courses at a local school, and saw that those who study this subject in Hong Kong are academically weak. Those with better grades would choose to study architecture instead. Less than 50% of my students took up interior design because they liked it. The barrier to studying design is relatively low, so the general level of practitioner is low. I think there is a big problem with interior deign education nowadays. I graduated from Poly U, and noticed that in the past ten years, those who teach environmental design are all architects, and not one of them is a practicing interior designer. When I was studying there, all the tutors were practitioners. The problem began when they changed from interior design to environmental design, and switched the teachers to architects. The two fields are very different. An architect’s concept of a good building is quite different from that of interior designers. Also the tutors they have now have not even practiced as architects, so they are very theoretical. Many Poly U graduates don’t even know how to draw design plans—they don’t know anything. What they teach is not practical, and the teachers themselves don’t know interior design. When I was studying, the approach was all-rounded, and every step from research, site analysis, design development and final presentation, etc., are included. Now teachers just teach them many different ways of doing research. Their portfolios contain only raw data and design briefs, without interior design content.

A: Their computer skill is ok, but design skills are not up to par.

B: Just now I was mainly talking about Poly U graduates. Other schools such as SPACE are more well-rounded. However, my general impression is that the teaching standard is not high. Practitioners who are successful in their profession don’t become teachers.

B: Your academic qualifications only matter if you work for the government, while the average medium and small sized business don’t care too much about that. I personally give more emphasis to people’s portfolios. To me the only time academic qualifications matter is if you participate in government projects; then they require that you have a senior designer with a BA or master’s degree on board. Also, for a masters degree holder, I would expect that his or her English language and project management skills to be better. If I hired someone from SPACE, they may not even be able to compose a letter in English. As an interior designer, you are not only required to draw building plans, but also be responsible for paper work and communication. If you don’t have these abilities you cannot get promoted.

D: Technical and practical skills, problem solving.

B: First and foremost is creativity.

C: Also technical and computer skills.

A: A design master once said that the most important quality in design is firmness, like this table, the second is commodity, which is usefulness, and the third is delight, which means pleasing people. Nowadays design education just try to impress people, and the other two functions are neglected. It is like neglecting your basic skills. In design your idea comprises just 2%, the other 98% is what we talked about just now, which you use to carry out your idea. Some companies are very creative, but the results are very ordinary.  Some companies are very creative and the results are also outstanding. It all depends on whether you can fit all the elements together perfectly. The present education system just teaches people how to think. That’s why they just teach research, and neglect the other 98%, which is how to put your creativity into practice. How can you improve the education system? You must have either a strong government or professional organization.

B: In former times, when you hire someone new, you expect them not to know anything, and have to teach them everything on the job.

C: It takes 6 months for me to train up someone new. When I started out in this business, all my drawings were hand drawn, with proper shading, which no one knows how to do anymore. It’s hard to represent the whole space on a computer, and after you are done you may find that the proportions are all wrong. When teaching in China, I encourage students to do hand drawing.

C: Designers don’t usually need to know about building codes, since the building they work on should already be compliant with all such codes. With fire regulations they need to know whether the materials are fire resistant. For me knowledge of sales and marketing and laws of contract are not too important.

B: To me, all the above knowledge areas are important. There are many types of interior designers. If you specialize in hotels, you have to be familiar with fire regulations and building regulations, and if you work in retail, you have to know about sales and marketing. If I work in residential design, I need to know about copyright. Not every designer must possess all these knowledge areas. However, nowadays the LEED system of environmental assessment is popular, so every designer should know about it. Design is not just a business, but a large part of it is art, so hand drawing is better than computer, although I am not completely in favor of the former. In the past, doing one drawing may take up half a day, but nowadays I can use the computer to design 50 different kinds of moods and lighting. If you know how to use it, computer allows you to do things that would not have been possible in the past.  But the problem lies with how the newer generation communicates and their sense of value. People are afraid of things they don’t know, and the new generation is scared of using hand drawing. But you cannot use the computer and think at the same time. Nowadays people don’t know anything beside software commands. Computers have turned them into operators instead of designers. Yet there is new software coming out all the time. You cannot rely on computer skills to earn a living.

Q: Have you heard of body of knowledge?

B: It’s easy to list certain categories, but the most important thing is content. When I was in school I studied these subjects, but who your teacher is and who is doing the learning is more important.

Q: Do you or your colleagues feel that interior design is a profession?

A: The barrier to entry is low, but being a designer somehow gives you special status.

B: There should be different grades of interior designers. Some people are draughtsman, others are decorators, and they would not have to deal with building regulations. Some people are interior architect, and they have to have more knowledge, like building structure, and how to build stairs. The barrier for entry into interior design is low, but this job needs to be done by real professionals. Now we rely on market forces to differentiate different types of interior designers, and clients can only choose designers based on portfolios and reputation. There is no one to stop you doing what you do, and clients aren’t so stupid as to ask you to do something beyond your abilities. Currently interior design fees vary across the board. Some people can complete a job for $5000, while some designers charge $5000 per square meter. We have to devise a way to differentiate them in a systematic way. Perhaps we can differentiate based on the types of project, or different grades of professionals.

C: In China, they refer to decorators as soft furnishers. Architects and interior designers think very differently. For example, architects try to satisfy the owners need to maximize space, and plan how many units a building should have, whether each unit should be 500 feet, and how many rooms should it contain etc. An interior designer should know space planning and how to optimize the use of space, and good interior designers should know about lighting. Having a registration can raise the value of interior designers.

B: Registration of interior designer is a world trend. In China they already have in place a system of grading interior designers. Society cares more and more about professionalisation. The difficulty with interior design is how to codify quality, and this has to do with much more than what kind of examination to have.  I think registration should go hand in hand with education. There are certain knowledge areas  that students must learn. The content of examination should not necessarily involve design, because that is quite subjective. There is a need for issuing licenses, and it may not be a good thing if the barrier is set too low. I’m not saying that I want to take away people’s right to earn a living. Perhaps you could distinguish based on the name, like barristers and solicitors.

A: How to set the criteria is important, because design is subjective.

B: You have to take education and examination into consideration at the same time, so that what you study is what will be examined, which is he basic knowledge of the profession. Now interior design education is based on general knowledge, which doesn’t work. You have to treat interior design as a profession, and differentiate it from other fields. If you want to be an architect, you have to study, take an examination, do you log book, and join HKIA. If you were not licensed, you cannot call yourself an architect. However, our present system does not have these things in place. A graphic designer can call himself an interior designer, which is not fair. If you don’t change the education system to make way for examination, it is meaningless.

B: In every profession, there is a transition period, and you can look at how other professions deal with this matter. For example, you can have a reputable committee assess people, or to look at their portfolios. In China, the way they distinguish is by the company’s turnover. It depends on the standards you want to adopt. You can make HKIDA more authoritative, and let people know that its members have certain professional standards.

C: I have been a HKIDA member for many years, but have always been to busy to take part in its events. In the past I had participated in their competition, but not in recent years because I’d been so busy. I don’t even have time to read their newsletters.

A: I don’t think it really helps practitioners, and hasn’t done anything substantial.

B: Other organizations also hold similar competitions, and the HKDA is also an association for designers. These kinds of associations are not well recognized and are rather cliquish. The association should promote itself more and gain wider recognition.

A: If you have to become a member in order to take on certain types of work, then I’d definitely join!

B: To me, the biggest function of the HKIDA is its annual competition. There is not much else that it does.

D: What punishment will there be if someone goes against the code?

C: To take free pitching as an example. You have to first educate the clients and do more promotion on this issue.

B: I don’t think free pitching is an important issue. First of all there is demand for it, and secondly there is always someone willing to do it, although I don’t know how many. As for code of conduct, you have to have it if you want to call yourself professional. The problem now is how to codify interior design, and think about how to set a barrier for entry. I think there should be different categories of interior designers.

D: Real estate agents have to do the same thing. This is a good thing.

B: Other professions have the same thing. I think it’s necessary. But what kind of standard should be used?

B: As individuals there is not much we can do, but the association can help fight for better resources for the industry.

C: We have greater creative freedom in China, but there are often problems with payment.

D: They tend to copy other people’s designs.

A: My projects in China are mostly from Hong Kong clients who have businesses in China.

C: My clients are from Mainland China, perhaps because I do restaurant design. I started working in Guangzhou in the 1990s.

B: At least you can readily purchase standard contracts in stores, which is not available in Hong Kong. However people do not follow the terms of the contracts.