Roundtable

Venue: Innocentre, Classroom 1 Present:

Moderator: Horace Pan, Vice-Chairman, HKIDA

Mr. Leslie Lu, Head of Product and Interior Design Department. HKDI

Ms. Louisa Young, Program Leader, Carittas Bianchi College of Careers

Ms. Winnie Ng, Instructor, C01 School of Visual Arts

Mr. Ivan Dai, Partner, LRF Designers Ltd

Mr. Iceman Leung, Chairman, Hong Kong Design Community

Mr. Jason Hung, Program Consultant Manager,Smartwill Education Centre

Mr. Arthur Lo, Instructor, HKU Space

Mr. Patrick Leung, Director, PAL Designers

Mr. Anthony Chan, Creative Director , Cream

Iceman: I actually belong to the education sector, and would like to share some of my views. I used to work for the Hong Kong Design Centre as education manager, and at the time I proposed that the Hong Kong Design Association establish a benchmark to separate professional and non-professional designers. Compared to their counterparts overseas, Hong Kong designers lack the means to show their professionalism, nor can they lead their clients in negotiations. That’s why in the commercial world, designers have relatively low value. I have studied other professions such as accountants, doctors, lawyers and architects, and found that they share one important attribute, which is that they much bear legal responsibility, be it in the area of heath, safety or culture.

Professionals have knowledge that their clients do not posses, and clients may not have the best solutions to their problems. For example, a doctor is responsible for providing the best health care to his patient in ways that may be beyond the patient’s understanding. Designers must have client management skills that allow them to command their clients’ respect and allow them to trust the designers’ professional judgements.  We need to establish the professionalism of interior designers, which must not overlap with that of architects, because if there were overlap, interior design would lose its uniqueness. Once we set this standard, it would also benefit new graduates, since their educational background equips them with the skills and knowledge to conform to this standard. We should give experienced designers some leeway in conforming to this new standard and allow a transition period before new rules take effect, because otherwise we would exclude some practitioners. The most efficient way to establish benchmarking is to reference similar benchmarks for interior designers in other countries. We should avoid the flaws in other countries before deciding which standard to adopt for ourselves. With regards to curriculum, most students are rather passive. They do not know what they ought to learn. Therefore I believe that we should take care of professional practice first.

Horace: You are saying we should first define our body of knowledge.

Iceman: To cite an example. In your survey you cited a lot of designers saying that hand drawing is an important aspect of interior design. This is a means of communication that allows designers to persuade their clients. They need to do this because they do not have licenses. If they do, all they need to do is speak out.

Leslie: If we were to have licensure, hand drawing would only be a small part of it. As a former architect and present educator, I think we must have a registration system for interior designers, and I fully support implementing such a system. I think standardizing curriculum is impossible at this point because everyone will disagree with it. However we must write a standard guideline on professionalism if we were to establish a registration system for interior designers. This guideline can be used as a reference for various educational institutions. The HKIDA should have a representative at these institutions as external examiner, course reviewer or other positions. Right now many of my colleagues in my departments are already HKIDA members, and there are HKIDA members in many institutions already, so it may not be necessary to send people there on purpose. Once you have representation, you can request that the institutions provide certain courses. Architecture faces the same problem. Different schools have their own styles, but every architecture student must know about professional practice, building structure, air conditioning, fire regulations, drainage and electricity, etc. Whether they know hand drawing is relatively less important. The above strengths are the only strengths that the government will recognize. If you have an examination, it must cover codes and regulations, and not just whether the design is pretty. This examination will be completely objective. Only when interior design has established such objective standards can it convince the general public of its professionalism. Will some people be excluded in this process? This is a long journey. If you want to have registration, you must first educate the public and the industry. Perhaps you can divide the profession into different categories of interior designers. You should not just eliminate certain people, but take it step by step. The registration of architects in China follows the same process. Some prominent architects only need to go for interviews instead of taking the full exam. However, in 15 years everyone will need to sit for the exam.

Patrick: We have been talking about registration for a long time. There are a few hurdles, such as our relationship with architects. They can do what we do, but we can’t do an architect’s job. Why? Because architects’ concerns are larger, while that of the interior designer is relatively smaller. Most people think interior design is just about aesthetic concerns, while an architect’s job has to do with safety issues. Most people don’t know that an interior designer’s job also concerns safety issues in more ways even than that of architects. We need to tell this to the general public and the government. Our job has to do with people’s living environment. A lot of people are talking about illegal structures these days, and that is the domain of the interior designer. Most architects are not concerned about illegal structures, and they simply don’t have the time for them. We can try to convince the government that interior designers can help make Hong Kong a safer place to live. We could first get the architects’ consent and let them know that we are not taking away their business, but rather help them deal with certain minor issues. In addition to codes and regulations, interior designers must also possess basic knowledge about architecture. However, many graduates today do not have such knowledge. Also aesthetics is itself a science that involves looking at the use of color, materials, knowing about the characteristics of each material, which are all important areas of knowledge. Also the relationship with contractors is important, as well as how to manage a contract and how to go from design to construction, which involves various tendering procedures, itself another area of knowledge that interior designers must know about. We work for the general public, and must possess professional knowledge. We have more than 6000 practitioners, which is not even 0.1% of the population. How can we convince the government to support registration? We have to think about strengthening our relationship with society, especially from the perspective of safety.

Ivan: About 10 years ago, the TDC did a study on design exports, and found that design exports are quite substantial. Not only do we serve Mainland clients, but also those in south-east Asia. We can use this as a bargaining point to negotiate with the government. The Hong Kong building industry exports a great deal to Mainland China, and they really need the services of Hong Kong interior designers.

Leslie: If you speak about numbers, the number of registered architects is fewer than half of 6500. There are only around 2000 of them. There are also fewer than 6000 civil engineers. Many other professions have fewer practitioners than interior design.

Winnie: Facilities management also has a lot to do with interior design. I know many companies that provide services ranging from building construction to interior design, and on to facilities management.

Leslie: I have done a study, and found that architects who work for the big property developers like Cheung Kong and SHK number more than registered architects.

Ivan: As an employer, I think the present education system is problematic. Many developers have started hiring Mainland interior designers for their projects, because their fee is half of ours, so the competition is keen. Our only advantage is our international exposure. I think registration and education must go hand in hand. Graduates now are only draftsmen, they don’t have creative minds, nor do they know about materials. Their computer drawings are pretty, but that’s not what we want. The education system has to improve creative training, especially the High Diploma and Degree programs. Useless courses like marketing are not necessary, because they are not useful. The advantage of registration is to provide quality assurance and prevent accidents. Also how to manage a contract, code of practice and building services all involve a lot of elements, so there is no way students could learn them all at school. Perhaps we can divide interior designers into different categories, like architects. Some are design architects who specialize in beautiful buildings, while others are registered architects that need to take exams. We need to have careful planning if we wish to convince the government to support registration for interior designers.

Louisa: The only interior design programs supported by the government are those offered at HKDI and PolyU. We are a school, so our students tend to be those rejected by other institution. Thus our students’ ability is a problem. We also offer a top-up degree, run on the British system, which differs from local practice. So how to categorize the different schools? Also the quality of teachers vary across the board. If HKIDA were to validate courses, who should be responsible for validation? Who should decide what should be included in the code of practice?

Anthony: The British architects have RIBA. They also have a registration system called ARB. However, RIBA’s recognition is considered more superior. Can HKIDA learn from RIBA and confer its recognition upon institutions and define school curriculum? For example, it can set the content of exams, which will influence what schools teach. The exam should be about safety issues. If there were examination for interior designers, the profession would have more recognition.

Horace: In many other places, such as Taiwan, interior design education is mostly university based.  It is hard for Hong Kong to convert all the colleges into universities. Perhaps we can work on exit level recognition, which is more suited to Hong Kong’s situation.

Arthur: Our school also takes in students outside of the top 20%, and we also have top-up degrees. I agree with what was said just now, that if there was an examination, we would have to teach what is in it, so there is no need to standardize the curriculum. The exam should focus on objective things such as codes and regulations, and other aspects could become specialized fields, like in medicine where you have specialists. For example, you could have specialists in hotel design. This way you won’t have to exclude contractors. Many of them are familiar with codes and regulations. You can have different types of licenses, in which everyone has to possess some core knowledge plus other kinds of specialized knowledge. School curriculum would naturally evolve as a result, according to the school’s resources and its market position, and variety should be encouraged. HKU Space is under a great deal of regulations. Our courses are under QF4, and we can’t change anything. Other schools also have higher diploma courses, and their programs can be one or two years in length. If these things can be standardized, it would be better for employers because they will know that graduates have had certain level of training.

Leslie: The only institution in Hong Kong recognized by the UGC is PolyU. Should  it recognize other universities? Years ago, when Eric Lai was head of the department at HKU, he looked down upon interior design, but felt it should be part of the future development of the university, and wanted to set up an interior design program at HKU. However, those at UGC felt that like in the UK, interior design belonged to polytechnics rather than universities, so they did not support university level interior design programs. They thought interior design was not a noble profession but a practical one. Later on, the Hong Kong Polytechnic became a university. So to get government support you have to speak to UGC. I think degree and registration always go hand in hand.

Louisa: This year, I am the chair of education at HKIDA, and I often receive calls from students asking if certain programs are recognized by us, and I can’t say we recognize or not recognize them. I have to answer in a circumspect way. We can’t even answer such queries directly, because we can’t assess school programs.

Jason: We are a private school, and are in the process of applying for QF recognition so that students will have more confidence in our program. Our program is part-time, with 60-70 students. I hope that HKIDA can supply a suggested syllabus that serve as a guideline for different levels of programs.

Louisa: It is difficult for HKIDA to supply a curriculum. For example, the amount of course work and course content at our school is different from that at HKDI. Which one is better? It is hard to define.

Leslie: It is hard to standardize all curriculum, but you can supply a guideline.

Iceman: The more creative the school, the less important the curriculum is, because they tend to give students more freedom.

Patrick: Actually interior design is highly regarded in Mainland China, and Hong Kong interior designers command a lot of respect, and they are involved in many big projects. So we really need to improve our interior design education and raise the level of professionalism. Aside from aesthetics, this profession involves many practical aspects. When hiring people, our greatest concern is whether they can be trained, and we only require that they have basic skills such as drafting.

Anthony: Different schools train students with different characteristics. PolyU graduates are better at language abilities.

Patrick: Project management is important for a company. For example building a hotel is highly complex, and you need to have at least 10 years of experience before you can grasp the whole system. If education can provide such training, then they will be able to take up these tasks sooner. When hiring new staff, the first thing I look at is their portfolio, and where they graduated is less important. Also I look at where they worked before, and if they worked for a contractor I would definitely not hire them. It doesn’t matter if they had worked in a junior position in a big company. Nowadays, interior design is a hot profession in China. When hiring for our subsidiary in Shanghai, our starting salary is 10,000RMB. HKIDA should do more to promote this industry, and let people know about the contribution interior design makes to different industries. A space that has been designed is different from one that has not. Different sectors of the economy need interior design. China has done a good job in promoting interior design. Also we need to develop relationship with those outside the industry in order to strengthen ourselves.

Leslie:  In Hong Kong, if a building collapses, the media would call the engineering departments at the three universities and ask for their opinion. Then they would phone the departments of architecture and HKIA. The chair would quickly formulate an answer. But no one would call the HKIDA. Yet community redevelopment and refurbishing old buildings should be the joint responsibilities of architects and interior designers. HKIDA should establish a position whereby people would call and ask for their opinion when something happens.

Patrick: In addition to safety, interior design also affects quality of life. For example, how much living space do people need? The strength of Hong Kong interior designers is their space management technique. They can accommodate people’s needs within small spaces. That is one of the strengths of our profession, which HKIDA should promote.  For example, we can offer our professional opinion to the government regarding public housing. In many respects, like ergonomics, we are better than architects.

Leslie: Many areas that involve human well-being are not well served by architects, like hospital room design.

Iceman: The HKIDA could develop interior design labs and introduce more research.

Leslie: Only two professional associations in Hong Kong have successfully dealt with continual professional development (CPD), and they are law and medicine. Other professions think they know everything already, and do not need CPD.

Louisa: How much influence can the HKIDA have on education? For example, I am against developing associate degrees.

Iceman: Many private school principals told me that under the QF system, there is room for out of the box institutes. If you are not within the system, then you can try your best to be creative and fit industry needs. There is plenty of room in the market. Even if you don’t have accreditation, your students can still be brilliant.

Arthur: The 3-3-4 system forced us to become a 2 year program, but that’s not enough to train an interior designer capable of independent thinking. Can there be specialized institutions outside of the university system capable of training designers? Also Hong Kong does not have too much research devoted to interior design, because there is only one university. The industry can take up a lot of research, which will benefit the industry’s professionalism.

Horace: Hong Kong’s interior design education system is like a triangle with a wide base. This is not normal. If you do not have proper training, how can you produce the next generation of designers?

Arthur: Right now the quality of educators is quite varied. Many teachers are part-timers, and have to take care of their own construction projects, or are the owners of design firms. When interviewing potential students, many say they want to study interior design because they want to make their homes more beautiful. We have to promote the idea that interior designers are not only responsible for residential work.

Louisa: I have students that already have 9 years of experience in carpentry, because he wanted to have the certificate and to learn drafting. There is another one who has 7 years of experience as an interior designer. He wants to go back to school for the certificate so that he can get a promotion.

Ivan: Many developers have adopted cost-cutting measures, and have started to require contractors to provide draft plans, so the interior designer’s job has increasingly become project management. However, they must also possess drafting skills. Graduates have two career paths—project management and design. So for registration we can consider establishing project management courses. The building collapse incident a few months back highlighted the need for registration. Contractors have already begun to move in that direction. We have to implement this soon. If we pursued the project management path it’d be faster.

Horace: How can Hong Kong interior designers maintain their competitiveness?

Ivan: If we can start registration we’d be one step ahead of China. We only have to reference architects codes and management process. It’s quite simple.

Horace: Shanghai has already instituted a three-tier system for interior designers.

Patrick: Hong Kong can also consider establishing a system based on project type, like residential, commercial, retail, hospitality, etc. We can also divide into interior decorator and interior designer. In this way we can let the public know the difference between the two. It will also strengthen our position. HKIDA’s responsibility is to act as the conduit between designers and the public.

Jason: The registration system for minor works contractors is quite simple. We can use that as a reference.

Horace: I think the main conclusion today is that we should well define a professional guideline. Once we establish our professional responsibilities, education would have to follow.